"I feel Gibb's character..or "out of character' as you all frame him as, was changed to have suitability to take on board another character because Kate left. Introducing Ziva on a permanent bases would not have worked if the two of them couldn't work together or trust one another. Things change in tv shows, and sometimes as a last minute hick-up, characterizations need to be amended to fit the new criteria of characters and circumstances. "

"That was the most blatant bit of manipulation I have ever seen. If that had come out when Ziva didn't want anything but to show Gibbs how much she respected him it might be seen a sight of afection or closeness. As it was it was used to make him feel guilty for letting her down in the same way he'd let Kelly down and so force him into doing what she wanted.

She also did not shoot Ari just to save his life. She shot Ari under orders from Mossad to kill him and win Gibbs trust so this was not a purely altruistic act. Particularly as she then used that lie for the basis of their entire relationship. And regarding the events in Shalom, lets not forget that Ziva's presense it the US was based upon her relationship with Gibbs not NCIS (for reasons that have never been explained). If he left then her placement was likely to leave so, again, her actions have questionable motivation.

She also failed to show Gibbs any support when Franks was killed. He clearly needed it but she was so caught up with herself then that she not only failed to show Gibbs support hersefl but she pulled Tony away from him. She also didn't turn up for his funeral was, again, a failure to show support for her 'father'.

That Gibbs was prepared to accept someone who had been party to the murder of his agent was pretty incredible to begin with. That he was willing to accept her again after a betrayl of his team and country including the knowledge that she was placed in his team as a spy is beyond incredible. And that is before we even consider the fact that hte man, who is supposed to be a perfectionist totally intolerent of failure, fails even to acknoweldge her repeated screw ups."

"Zvia lied her way into a federal agency under orders from a foreign government and no one even got around to asking why? That is just insane. And Ziva was sent to kill Ari after he'd murdered multiple people and made an attempt to take out the US president. I don't think even Ziva is in that league by way of embarressments to Mossad since, after all, if she wanted to leave all she had to do was resign and go do something else. Its not as if she is without relatives. Her father is just a director of Mossad. Not some sort of Godfather mob leader."

"I keep remembering Eli asking Ziva were her loyalties were and he basically sent her on a sucide mission, knowing full well that she was still mourning the loss of someone she cared for, regardless if Michael was nuts. Also, I think it was Vance who side that Eli did not believe that America was doing enough against terrioism and let us not forget that Jenny was the one that brought Ziva in without Gibbs ok and once Gibbs and Vance found out what happened in "Good Cop Bad Cop" I think they both realized that Ziva was completely in a no win situation. I do believe that if Eli could order Ziva to kill her own brother than he would have also had her kiilled for betraying Mosad / Israel. You might say Ziva was a afraid for her life. Remeber, it was in Shalom that Ziva turned to Gibbs after realizing that her father was not going to help clear her name for murdering two FBI agents. I also think it took Ziva a long time to get the courage to break from the only blood family she had left. Ziva did mention in an episode in Season 9 that her mother was dead. I think this debate is going to be that everyone is going to have their own personal view on the Gibbs and Ziva relationship "farther / daughter" their is no sexual please that is just to out there."

"It was easier to do in later seasons as he turned his back on her and she saw more clearly what he was capable of, and the bad man he really was. Its not always easy to say "just do this", but in some circumstances you can't just walk away. "