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Ziva4ever
Ziva4ever
What is that makes people not like Ziva?
Apr 3 2012, 6:37 PM EDT | Post edited: Apr 9 2012, 3:04 PM EDT
What is it with people and Ziva? She is kind when needed, aggressive when called for, and all around she is perfect for the show. People ask, Why did Kate die? I think it is because they needed someone that was more interesting than Kate. Once you got into the third season, you knew everything about Kate, and every episode was almost the same. What do people have against Ziva? 6  out of 14 found this valuable. Do you?    
Sorgiña
Sorgiña
1. RE: What do people have against Ziva?
Apr 3 2012, 6:51 PM EDT | Post edited: Apr 3 2012, 6:51 PM EDT
The same reasons anyone likes or dislikes a character. Kate died because the actress playing her wished to leave the series, otherwise she might still be in the series, who knows.
But getting back to your question not everyone likes all the characters, in the same way we don't like everybody we meet or work or study with, it's just a fact of life. You can't please everybody all of the time
7  out of 8 found this valuable. Do you?    
Ziva4ever
Ziva4ever
2. RE: What do people have against Ziva?
Apr 3 2012, 8:21 PM EDT | Post edited: Apr 3 2012, 8:21 PM EDT
"The same reasons anyone likes or dislikes a character. Kate died because the actress playing her wished to leave the series, otherwise she might still be in the series, who knows.
But getting back to your question not everyone likes all the characters, in the same way we don't like everybody we meet or work or study with, it's just a fact of life. You can't please everybody all of the time"
Understanable, I just think that if they have problems with Ziva that they should keep it to themselves. They should not go around and bash people on their own website. That is my oppinoin, I realize that not everybody likes her.
I am also interested in what makes people not like her.
2  out of 8 found this valuable. Do you?    

12129
3. RE: What do people have against Ziva?
Apr 7 2012, 1:17 PM EDT | Post edited: Apr 7 2012, 1:17 PM EDT
"Understanable, I just think that if they have problems with Ziva that they should keep it to themselves. They should not go around and bash people on their own website. That is my oppinoin, I realize that not everybody likes her.
I am also interested in what makes people not like her."
I have to disagree with you on the idea that people who don't like aspects of the show should keep it to themselves. What is the point of discussing a character if you can't discuss the good as well as the bad?

I agree that personally bashing a person with an opinion should not be done. Unfortunately at times people get too caught up and can't take disagreement objectively (this is both people who love a character as well as those who hate).

Now back to your original questions!

While I love all the characters on NCIS, I can easily create a laundry list of reasons to dislike about all of them. Both in cannon and writer/watcher forced.

A few reasons to dislike Ziva (which can apply to many characters):

*Annoying character traits: Sometimes it is just this simple. There are things the character says or does that just grates on the nerves. It is a bit like having pet peeves.

* Ninja Barbie: At times she was bad a** awesomesauce and could do no wrong. Two reasons to dislike this. 1. Some hate perfect. 2. To make her better, at times, the writers made other characters look worse. By the way, this is an easy way to make someone hate a character. Tear down a favorite character to make another look better.

*Transference: A favorite, Kate, left and so they put the anger of losing Kate onto the character that replaced her (this happens in real life too with mothers and step-mothers). I don't have enough room to get into the relationship aspect of this.

Remember, some of the things that make you like a character could be exactly what someone else dislikes. Different perspectives.
10  out of 10 found this valuable. Do you?    
Sorgiña
Sorgiña
4. RE: What do people have against Ziva?
Apr 7 2012, 2:07 PM EDT | Post edited: Apr 7 2012, 2:07 PM EDT
Very well put Do you find this valuable?    

retiredinlavernia
5. RE: What do people have against Ziva?
Apr 7 2012, 4:27 PM EDT | Post edited: Apr 7 2012, 4:28 PM EDT
"I have to disagree with you on the idea that people who don't like aspects of the show should keep it to themselves. What is the point of discussing a character if you can't discuss the good as well as the bad?

"
I like Ziva - She is a modern women in many ways- Smart, tough, able to take care of herself and beautiful but I can understand why people do not like her.
She took Kate's place on the team for one and also does not have the moral charactor that most people do -She has killed many many people and even though most were in the defense of her country (Isreal) or in the "line of duty" there are numerous others that were not justified in many minds. She gained Gibbs trust in a questionable way and I do not think I could trust her - She is trained as a Mousad spy after all. But again I lke her and she is a valuable member of "Team Gibbs" and the one Gibbs calls on again and again to make the shot no one else could (eg - Child's play, Worst Nighmare, Blowback, The Spider and the Fly, etc episodes).
0  out of 3 found this valuable. Do you?    
bellswebster
bellswebster
6. RE: What do people have against Ziva?
Apr 8 2012, 5:48 AM EDT | Post edited: Apr 8 2012, 5:50 AM EDT
Ziva has changed from her past ways of doing things. She still can kick butt if she has to, but we have seen a kinder, softer side to her as well. A side she most likely never knew was there. I don't compare Ziva taking Kates place because they are too totally different people. I liked Kate, but Ziva is a better stronger minded person to take on a tough job. Kate was more girlie, femenine and weaker in body. Ziva got her killer, her own brother, so you could say she saved Gibbs life and got revenge for Kate as well. Gibbs trusts her now, so I don't really see there is any problem with her about the trust issue anymore. Her 'ninja Barbie' ways are part of what she learnt with Mossad. Its a type of karate moves that she does. People who are taught self defence could do some of her moves. I don't see that any character was written down to make her look better. They all have their faults. Tony is the only one whom the writers let down where his character is concerned, and it has little to do with Ziva. 6  out of 11 found this valuable. Do you?    
Ziva4ever
Ziva4ever
7. RE: What do people have against Ziva?
Apr 9 2012, 3:03 PM EDT | Post edited: Apr 9 2012, 3:03 PM EDT
I think I would have to agree with everybody, although I love Ziva, she has her anoying traits. And comparing her with Kate is a bit hard. I have learned a lot since I started this thread. I really just want to know now what makes people not like her. Comments anybody???? 1  out of 2 found this valuable. Do you?    
Ziva4ever
Ziva4ever
8. RE: What do people have against Ziva?
Apr 9 2012, 3:11 PM EDT | Post edited: Apr 9 2012, 3:11 PM EDT
"Ziva has changed from her past ways of doing things. She still can kick butt if she has to, but we have seen a kinder, softer side to her as well. A side she most likely never knew was there. I don't compare Ziva taking Kates place because they are too totally different people. I liked Kate, but Ziva is a better stronger minded person to take on a tough job. Kate was more girlie, femenine and weaker in body. Ziva got her killer, her own brother, so you could say she saved Gibbs life and got revenge for Kate as well. Gibbs trusts her now, so I don't really see there is any problem with her about the trust issue anymore. Her 'ninja Barbie' ways are part of what she learnt with Mossad. Its a type of karate moves that she does. People who are taught self defence could do some of her moves. I don't see that any character was written down to make her look better. They all have their faults. Tony is the only one whom the writers let down where his character is concerned, and it has little to do with Ziva. "
I have done karate for 5 years and when I watching some of her moves I realized that I could do some of them. Maybe not pull a gun on someone in the process, but I could at lesst knock them out about as effectevly as her. You go watch someone do karate and you will understand.
0  out of 1 found this valuable. Do you?    
bellswebster
bellswebster
9. RE: What do people have against Ziva?
Apr 9 2012, 4:49 PM EDT | Post edited: Apr 9 2012, 4:49 PM EDT
If others like yourself can do her moves then her character can't be so unbelievable.

I don't have anything against Ziva.
2  out of 4 found this valuable. Do you?    
Ziva4ever
Ziva4ever
10. RE: What do people have against Ziva?
Apr 10 2012, 8:53 PM EDT | Post edited: Apr 10 2012, 8:55 PM EDT
"If others like yourself can do her moves then her character can't be so unbelievable.

I don't have anything against Ziva. "
That is what I am trying to point out. Some people say that her character is way out of the ordinary, but I know for a fact that anybody that has taken karate for at least a year can at least see some of the most basic moves in her. She is not all that unrealistic. And I can understand that some people may not like her attitude some times, but they all have harsh attitudes at one point or another. ( Ducky and Jimmy are exceptions)
1  out of 3 found this valuable. Do you?    

froggg
11. RE: What do people have against Ziva?
Apr 11 2012, 4:20 AM EDT | Post edited: Apr 11 2012, 4:20 AM EDT
"That is what I am trying to point out. Some people say that her character is way out of the ordinary, but I know for a fact that anybody that has taken karate for at least a year can at least see some of the most basic moves in her. She is not all that unrealistic. And I can understand that some people may not like her attitude some times, but they all have harsh attitudes at one point or another. ( Ducky and Jimmy are exceptions)"
I find her deeply unpleasant.
She cannot control her temper and lashes out like a spoilt child when she gets cross.
She takes no reponsibility for her own decisions and blames those around her when things go wrong.
She shows no respect for her collegues but demands their respect
She does not learn from her mistakes and no one expects her too.
She has so many talents she is virtually an entire agency in her own right
She is Hollywood's answer to a strong woman. Kick ass and sexy but incapable of logical thought or action when her emotions or hormones are rampant.
8  out of 11 found this valuable. Do you?    
Ziva4ever
Ziva4ever
12. RE: What do people have against Ziva?
Apr 11 2012, 6:55 PM EDT | Post edited: Apr 11 2012, 6:55 PM EDT
"I find her deeply unpleasant.
She cannot control her temper and lashes out like a spoilt child when she gets cross.
She takes no reponsibility for her own decisions and blames those around her when things go wrong.
She shows no respect for her collegues but demands their respect
She does not learn from her mistakes and no one expects her too.
She has so many talents she is virtually an entire agency in her own right
She is Hollywood's answer to a strong woman. Kick ass and sexy but incapable of logical thought or action when her emotions or hormones are rampant."
Would you elaborate on the deeply unpleasent? I really dont understand that part. On the other hand. I completely understand everything else. But the problem is, is that she is not constantly like this. She has different personalities. She changes, lately we are seeing more of her emotional side, and it is great. Have you watched any ep. after she came in? If so, you have to admit that she has been more emotional lately. Maybe you will like what her character will evolve into. If not, dont come back mean. I am just trying to give suggestions

I think that there is also another side to this. What are the dislikes AND likes? Anybody can say, I really do want to know.
1  out of 2 found this valuable. Do you?    

froggg
13. RE: What do people have against Ziva?
Apr 11 2012, 7:12 PM EDT | Post edited: Apr 11 2012, 7:12 PM EDT
" Have you watched any ep. after she came in? If so, you have to admit that she has been more emotional lately. Maybe you will like what her character will evolve into. If not, dont come back mean. I am just trying to give suggestions

I think that there is also another side to this. What are the dislikes AND likes? Anybody can say, I really do want to know."
I thought I had elaborated on why I find her unpleasant. I don't like violent, uncontrolled people. And Ziva has not got more emotional in my opinion. She was already that way from the start. Ziva has been ruled by her emotions since the day she first arrived. That is probably my point. She defied logic to protect Ari, flew into a rage when Rivkin's motives were challenged and then did the exact same thing over her mentor. This is not evolution. Its someone who appears incapable of learning from her mistakes.

And please don't tell me what to do. It is offensive.
3  out of 4 found this valuable. Do you?    
Ziva4ever
Ziva4ever
14. RE: What do people have against Ziva?
Apr 13 2012, 8:31 AM EDT | Post edited: Apr 13 2012, 8:43 AM EDT
"I thought I had elaborated on why I find her unpleasant. I don't like violent, uncontrolled people. And Ziva has not got more emotional in my opinion. She was already that way from the start. Ziva has been ruled by her emotions since the day she first arrived. That is probably my point. She defied logic to protect Ari, flew into a rage when Rivkin's motives were challenged and then did the exact same thing over her mentor. This is not evolution. Its someone who appears incapable of learning from her mistakes.

And please don't tell me what to do. It is offensive."
That is just her training. She was trained to spy and kill. I think that when you are trained to do that then you are going to be violent, at least I would be. So what? Maybe she doent learn from her mistakes. In all honesty I really dont do very well with that either. But I asked for likesAND dislikes and that is what I got. Any more?

P.S. I am not tring to tell you what to do. I am just saying that when you come back mean it is equivalent to you yelling at me. I really didnt mean for it to be offensive.
0  out of 2 found this valuable. Do you?    

froggg
15. RE: What do people have against Ziva?
Apr 13 2012, 9:06 AM EDT | Post edited: Apr 13 2012, 9:06 AM EDT
"That is just her training. She was trained to spy and kill. I think that when you are trained to do that then you are going to be violent, at least I would be. So what? Maybe she doent learn from her mistakes. In all honesty I really dont do very well with that either. But I asked for likesAND dislikes and that is what I got. Any more?"
Ziva has been at NCIS for almost all of her adult life. She has had more 'training' in US investigative methods than Mossad spy training. Looking at the bits she has said about her childhood paint a picture of a privilaged little girl who had music lessons and dance recitals and wanted a pony and who had a mother who tried to seperate her children from their father's work.

Taking into account her 2 years mandatory army service and the college she said she went to that does not leave any time to become a harderned killer or spy.

And if, after all that, she is still programmed for uncontrolled violence then there has to be a question over her suitability to operate as an armed LEO or, indeed, her ability to function within normal society.

2  out of 2 found this valuable. Do you?    

froggg
16. RE: What do people have against Ziva?
Apr 13 2012, 9:08 AM EDT | Post edited: Apr 13 2012, 9:08 AM EDT
"
P.S. I am not tring to tell you what to do. I am just saying that when you come back mean it is equivalent to you yelling at me. I really didnt mean for it to be offensive."
Using the evidence from the show to support discussion points is not 'coming back mean'. It is holding an objective discussion.
5  out of 6 found this valuable. Do you?    
rosecake
rosecake
17. RE: What do people have against Ziva?
Apr 13 2012, 10:37 AM EDT | Post edited: Apr 13 2012, 10:37 AM EDT
"That is just her training. She was trained to spy and kill. I think that when you are trained to do that then you are going to be violent, at least I would be. So what? Maybe she doent learn from her mistakes. In all honesty I really dont do very well with that either. But I asked for likesAND dislikes and that is what I got. Any more?

"
Sorry, but that's not training.
Being a spy or a killer means being one of the most controlled person in the world. Neither a spy nor a killer can let their emotions and feelings lead them or they would be dead in a blink.
Have you ever watched ''The Jackal'' (1997 movie with Bruce Willis and Richard Gere)? or Léon (in USA 'The Professional') with Jean Reno?
In both of those movies the killers are the most cold and controlled people in the world.

It seems to me that when NCIS scriptwriters write Ziva, they draw their ideas from B action movies (ala Chuck Norris) and likely their adolescent fantasies, and not from reality and adults' world.
3  out of 4 found this valuable. Do you?    
GoNCIS
GoNCIS
18. RE: What do people have against Ziva?
Apr 13 2012, 1:31 PM EDT | Post edited: Apr 13 2012, 1:31 PM EDT
Rosecake, The Jackal also doesn't epitomise how an assassin should be... :))

Ziva has been cold, controlled and emotionless - in the field, while taking someone out, while defusing an explosive.
She gets worked up when conflicting opinions arise between friends and peers, which is something so common. Why on earth should she be isolated and targeted for that? How she handles her personal life makes no relevance to how she acts on her field. Moreover, Mossad lifestyle is far different from CIA spies and assassin lifestyles.
Sorry, but compared to Ziva's character, Kate's character almost appears as a pin-up doll...
2  out of 5 found this valuable. Do you?    
GoNCIS
GoNCIS
19. RE: What do people have against Ziva?
Apr 13 2012, 1:40 PM EDT | Post edited: Apr 13 2012, 1:40 PM EDT
As for S6, to Ziva, Rivkin was a friend, and an ex-partner (remember Gibbs rule about never screw Over your partner). Once a partner, always a partner. Remember Tony's loyalty to his ex-partner from Baltimore PD, even after he joined NCIS? Ziva's loyalty to Rivkin, as an individual is just the same.
And please, she did not 'screw' up anything. She was uninformed of Mossad's actual operation because Daddy had trust issues. And so, she did not assume Rivkin's visit to her may be of any significance to pro-actively come and tell anyone. It was her personal business. But when it did come up and she was asked, she did identify him promptly. And when Tony asked her if she'd inform them about Rivkin now, she did say she'd tell Gibbs. Was she rude to Tony? Absolutely. He went snooping behind her back. If I'd been in her place, I'd have been rude to him as well.
When Tony shot Michael, Ziva was upset. Like she said, Tony COULD have shot Rivkin to disable him, rather than shooting at his chest. Tony's shooting was justified by his situation. But Ziva's agony is equally justified -
- her father left her out of loop
- she'd just discovered that her ex-partner had been using her
- her current partner (Tony) did not trust her and had followed her.
- her ex-partner is now dead
- her father just told her he did not trust her.
So, if she was totally conflicted, and needed time to sort out her priorities, she had every right in the world to. And she chose her family, which is nothing unnatural in this world!
In S7, when she realised her family had still let her down, she sorted her priorities. And even though her anger towards Tony in Aliyah was valid at that point of time, she apologised to Tony, and clarified that after thinking things through, that she'd been wrong to question his motives. It'd be the same with any other character too, most definitely.
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