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HardKore71
HardKore71
40. RE: Gibbs and Eli David
Dec 13 2009, 4:31 PM EST | Post edited: Dec 13 2009, 4:31 PM EST
"In that lies his strenght and his weakness. Eli once said he would love for Ziva's childeren to grow up as doctors, lawyers and more but what has he got so show for himself now....absolutly nothing. He has always put his country first but has lost what means the most his family....by his own actions and that includes the loss of Ziva. He has got nothing else left but his country and wasn't his family the first and foremost reason for him to act the way that he does, fight for the safty of your family by keeping your country safe. I think Eli has lost sight of what is really important...family.

But I agree with you he is definiatly not one dimensional....he has many layers the more you see the more you don't understand about him, and if we don't understand him how can he (or we) expect Ziva to understand his actions. But I love a good multi layered villian."
hee hee like I said a guy one loves to hate. I like the irony he did what he did to protect his family and country, but ended up losing his family because of his actions.
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Kiamari
41. RE: Gibbs and Eli David
Dec 13 2009, 7:18 PM EST | Post edited: Dec 13 2009, 7:18 PM EST
"But I agree with you he is definiatly not one dimensional....he has many layers the more you see the more you don't understand about him, and if we don't understand him how can he (or we) expect Ziva to understand his actions. But I love a good multi layered villian."
Mmm, as the show's progressed, we've seen Eli David go through some character growth; hes' always struck me as the shady kind, but the last season or two has really cemented him as the 'bad guy'. That being said, he's only trying to protect his country from 'terrorists' (I still despise this recurring theme of terrorism in the show). I think he's essentially a good guy at heart, but his actions are those of a ruthless man who is willing to go through everything and everyone to get the job done. This casts him in a negative light and earns him the anger and resentment of those around him (and, of course, the fans of the show).

As we saw in 'Good Cop, Bad Cop', he wanted his daughter back; desperately so. Now, was this because of her status as his daughter, and his love and concern for her? If so, why attempt to tarnish her good(?) name and reputation with NCIS, instead of simply telling her that he loves her and respecting her wishes to remain at NCIS? Was it because he believed it to be truth, or was it because he wanted to ensure that she could never leave Mossad (and him) behind for NCIS a second time?
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Kiamari
42. RE: Gibbs and Eli David
Dec 13 2009, 7:18 PM EST | Post edited: Dec 13 2009, 7:18 PM EST
(Sorry for the double post. Ran out of space.)

Or, did he want her back because she is 'the best', and an asset to Mossad, and nothing more? I don't believe this is the case. In the episode 'Aliyah', he seemed genuinely happy to see her; the comment about the makeup, I think, was borne out of the shock of her looking so unexpectedly different. And, then again, in 'Good Cop, Bad Cop', he's heard ranting over the phone about how Gibbs 'stole' his daughter from him - now, I do believe that part of that is just him smarting over having Gibbs & co. having gotten one-up on him (Tony, especially, since it would amount to the third time he'd beaten Eli at something [killing Rivkin and then getting him to admit that Rivkin was acting on his orders in regard to Ziva, and then saving Ziva from the camp in Somalia being the first two]) again, but I think part of it is also genuine love for his daughter and his conern over her welfare.

I also think (after hearing the rant on 'Good Cop, Bad Cop'), he feels remorse for leaving her out there for so long. He probably DID assume that she was dead, and once he heard she was alive, I think he felt bad about not searching more thoroughly for her.

Of course, this is all just me reading into the character WAY too much. XD You can compare Eli to any number of people that we've seen on television; he became power-hungry and sacrificed everything, shedded all his baggage, to get where he wanted to be. It was only after it was too late that he realised that he'd pretty much destroyed his life in order to get to the top.

He's a lot like Jenny in that aspect.
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emerellda
emerellda
43. RE: Gibbs and Eli David
Dec 14 2009, 3:24 AM EST | Post edited: Dec 14 2009, 3:24 AM EST
Personally I think that although jenny and eli share some characterists (whole hearted commintment to the job) they are very different individuals, and alot of it comes from there upbringing and situation, and the same thing applies to eli and gibbs, eli is a person who would have grown up his whole life knowing about the isreali - arab relationship and the sometimes viloent attacks on ireaili people (munich kidnappings ect), his parents/he probably lost somebody in the holocaust, which would have re-inforced the idea that there is evil out there, which motavates his actions, but this also colours his actions in a negitive light, that he will extract his revenge on anyone who has harmed him or iseral, and he will not let anyone get in the way of this, and he applies this to every person he deals with, and he commits himself to his mission with no reserve, in a hostage situation (assuming he is out in the field) he would probably not change his plan of action, just because one of his agents was endangered, he would probably care, but not enough to make him reconsider, where as gibbs, or jenny would, eli is a very interesting character really, and although I do think that he is a scumbag, but he has scarificed alot for his country, to what he thought was right, or never stopped to questionn weather it was right, but you are definitly right kiamari, eli is a very complicated character, who we have definitly not seen the last of Do you find this valuable?    
Nemisses
Nemisses
44. RE: Gibbs and Eli David
Dec 14 2009, 4:13 AM EST | Post edited: Dec 14 2009, 4:13 AM EST
"Or, did he want her back because she is 'the best', and an asset to Mossad, and nothing more? I don't believe this is the case. In the episode 'Aliyah', he seemed genuinely happy to see her; the comment about the makeup, I think, was borne out of the shock of her looking so unexpectedly different. And, then again, in 'Good Cop, Bad Cop', he's heard ranting over the phone about how Gibbs 'stole' his daughter from him - ....."
I think Eli doesn't remember what it is like to give and or recieve love. Yes, I do believe he "loves" Ziva in his own little twisted way but the reason he was ranting to Vance about the fact that Gibbs stole his daughter sounded to me like a child who's agry with another child for steeling away his toy. (come to think of it if that is the case maybe his next action will be If I cannot have her no one will, oh crap now that thought keeps running through my mind)
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HardKore71
HardKore71
45. RE: Gibbs and Eli David
Dec 14 2009, 5:00 AM EST | Post edited: Dec 14 2009, 5:00 AM EST
"I think Eli doesn't remember what it is like to give and or recieve love. Yes, I do believe he "loves" Ziva in his own little twisted way but the reason he was ranting to Vance about the fact that Gibbs stole his daughter sounded to me like a child who's agry with another child for steeling away his toy. (come to think of it if that is the case maybe his next action will be If I cannot have her no one will, oh crap now that thought keeps running through my mind)"
lol, I doubt it but we havent heard the last from this creep.
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exlurker
46. RE: Gibbs and Eli David
Dec 14 2009, 11:51 AM EST | Post edited: Dec 14 2009, 11:51 AM EST
"Personally I think that although jenny and eli share some characterists (whole hearted commintment to the job) they are very different individuals, and alot of it comes from there upbringing and situation, which would have re-inforced the idea that there is evil out there, which motavates his actions, but this also colours his actions in a negitive light, that he will extract his revenge on anyone who has harmed him or iseral, and he will not let anyone get in the way of this, and he applies this to every person he deals with, and he commits himself to his mission with no reserve, "
I hadn't thought of Jenny & Eli David as sharing a character type, but I think you are right about Eli David's obsessional attitudes & the sacrifices that he has probably made for his county. After all, Vance must have gotten to know But I also think his lack of morality contributes to the evil in the world. His actions towards Ari were especially dreadful (and look at the blowback that created). But I think that his pragmatic attitude towards the success or failure of his plotting might offer Ziva a way out, if he finally accepts that she has done enough for Israel. Not sure how Gibbs can convince him of this though & I'm looking forward to the confrontation. Eli came off badly enough in the last 2 NCIS confrontations that he will have to rethink his strategy - and, I hope, think about Ziva as his daughter. As Kiamaria pointed out, he did try to rescue her, even if it was what he might have done for any other agent. Gibbs put himself & the team in danger even though he had his doubts about her, though & as a result, Ziva should have no doubts about her loyalties as long as it is purely a choice between Eli & Gibbs (without loyalty to her country being involved)
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HardKore71
HardKore71
47. RE: Gibbs and Eli David
Dec 14 2009, 4:01 PM EST | Post edited: Dec 14 2009, 4:01 PM EST
"I hadn't thought of Jenny & Eli David as sharing a character type, but I think you are right about Eli David's obsessional attitudes & the sacrifices that he has probably made for his county. After all, Vance must have gotten to know But I also think his lack of morality contributes to the evil in the world. His actions towards Ari were especially dreadful (and look at the blowback that created). But I think that his pragmatic attitude towards the success or failure of his plotting might offer Ziva a way out, if he finally accepts that she has done enough for Israel. Not sure how Gibbs can convince him of this though & I'm looking forward to the confrontation. Eli came off badly enough in the last 2 NCIS confrontations that he will have to rethink his strategy - and, I hope, think about Ziva as his daughter. As Kiamaria pointed out, he did try to rescue her, even if it was what he might have done for any other agent. Gibbs put himself & the team in danger even though he had his doubts about her, though & as a result, Ziva should have no doubts about her loyalties as long as it is purely a choice between Eli & Gibbs (without loyalty to her country being involved)"
I don't think he even attempted a rescue mission unless I missed something, If it was my daughter missing I would do everything in my power to get confirmation that she was dead ,and if she were alive do anything to get her back. Unless I am mistaken I thought she was held captive for like 2-3 months by that terrorist, I would assume that would be enough time to find out if Ziva was alive or dead. I understand we all have differing views about Eli, but in my eyes there is no justification for many of his actions and the way he conducts business. Just my 2 cents.
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MargyW
MargyW
48. RE: Gibbs and Eli David
Dec 14 2009, 4:23 PM EST | Post edited: Dec 14 2009, 4:23 PM EST
"I don't think he even attempted a rescue mission unless I missed something, If it was my daughter missing I would do everything in my power to get confirmation that she was dead ,and if she were alive do anything to get her back. Unless I am mistaken I thought she was held captive for like 2-3 months by that terrorist, I would assume that would be enough time to find out if Ziva was alive or dead. I understand we all have differing views about Eli, but in my eyes there is no justification for many of his actions and the way he conducts business. Just my 2 cents."
He did not attempt a rescue mission. Unless exlurker considers sending Malachi Ben-Gidon to Washington a rescue attempt. That was an attempt to burn Ziva and force her back to Mossad.
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emerellda
emerellda
49. RE: Gibbs and Eli David
Dec 14 2009, 4:28 PM EST | Post edited: Dec 14 2009, 4:28 PM EST
yeah even of eli did believe that ziva was dead, he still should have checked, or done something rather than leave her stranded in the iddle of nowhere Do you find this valuable?    
HardKore71
HardKore71
50. RE: Gibbs and Eli David
Dec 14 2009, 4:34 PM EST | Post edited: Dec 14 2009, 4:34 PM EST
"He did not attempt a rescue mission. Unless exlurker considers sending Malachi Ben-Gidon to Washington a rescue attempt. That was an attempt to burn Ziva and force her back to Mossad."
That's adding insult to injury, he doesn't do squat to find out if she's alive or dead, no rescue mission, then tries to discredit her to the the people who brought her back...WOW! Just a class act that Eli David, if I was Vance or any other Head of an Agency Eli would have no credibility with me. And why would Ziva want to go back after all that bullcrap?
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texasjj
51. RE: Gibbs and Eli David
Dec 14 2009, 5:21 PM EST | Post edited: Dec 14 2009, 5:21 PM EST
"He did not attempt a rescue mission. Unless exlurker considers sending Malachi Ben-Gidon to Washington a rescue attempt. That was an attempt to burn Ziva and force her back to Mossad."
I thought that it was Malachi Ben-Gidon just covering his own a**. I think it was him that told
Ziva her father said to go ahead with the mission. JMO
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Kiamari
52. RE: Gibbs and Eli David
Dec 14 2009, 5:25 PM EST | Post edited: Dec 14 2009, 5:25 PM EST
"I don't think he even attempted a rescue mission unless I missed something, If it was my daughter missing I would do everything in my power to get confirmation that she was dead ,and if she were alive do anything to get her back. Unless I am mistaken I thought she was held captive for like 2-3 months by that terrorist, I would assume that would be enough time to find out if Ziva was alive or dead..."
I believe that was what the 'increased presence' of Mossad in Somalia was about. Either they were hunting down the terrorist, or they were attempting to search for Ziva. Perhaps both, considering that they would have been together (assuming that Eli believed that she'd gotten in).

You have to remember that no one knew where the camp was. Even Ziva had to be guided there. Tony and McGee had to be CAPTURED to get there. So, we can assume that these terrorists were so well hidden that they weren't easily found -- I'd say that'd make a rescue mission (or even conformation of Ziva's death) rather difficult. And besides, can you honestly say that you'd expect someone who has been captured by terrorists to survive more than a week, at most? If I were Eli, I'd have accepted that she was dead and continued to try to find him, if for no other reason than to kill the sonuvab**** that killed my child.

You can't really blame a guy for assuming that his daughter is dead in circumstances like that. I know I would have thought so, too.
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HardKore71
HardKore71
53. RE: Gibbs and Eli David
Dec 14 2009, 6:04 PM EST | Post edited: Dec 14 2009, 6:04 PM EST
"I believe that was what the 'increased presence' of Mossad in Somalia was about. Either they were hunting down the terrorist, or they were attempting to search for Ziva. Perhaps both, considering that they would have been together (assuming that Eli believed that she'd gotten in).

You have to remember that no one knew where the camp was. Even Ziva had to be guided there. Tony and McGee had to be CAPTURED to get there. So, we can assume that these terrorists were so well hidden that they weren't easily found -- I'd say that'd make a rescue mission (or even conformation of Ziva's death) rather difficult. And besides, can you honestly say that you'd expect someone who has been captured by terrorists to survive more than a week, at most? If I were Eli, I'd have accepted that she was dead and continued to try to find him, if for no other reason than to kill the sonuvab**** that killed my child.

You can't really blame a guy for assuming that his daughter is dead in circumstances like that. I know I would have thought so, too."
I could be wrong but didn't Abby figure out where the camp was by following the Caf-Pow trail? I thought that them getting captured was a pretext for the rescue mission. Someone please clarify as I dont have Season 7 stored on my comp? I think that special agent from Texas was referring to Ziva and Ben-Gidons team right before Ziva's one woman assault on that terrorist camp, I could be wrong on this as well as my memory is a little hinky on TnC.
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Kiamari
54. RE: Gibbs and Eli David
Dec 14 2009, 6:22 PM EST | Post edited: Dec 14 2009, 6:22 PM EST
"I could be wrong but didn't Abby figure out where the camp was by following the Caf-Pow trail? I thought that them getting captured was a pretext for the rescue mission. Someone please clarify as I dont have Season 7 stored on my comp? I think that special agent from Texas was referring to Ziva and Ben-Gidons team right before Ziva's one woman assault on that terrorist camp, I could be wrong on this as well as my memory is a little hinky on TnC."
Yes she did, but really; who would think to follow a Caf-Pow trail? the NCIS team were desperate to know what had happened, and anyway, who's to say that they knew the courier would take them directly to the camp? And besides, it's not like there's a GPS locator in every carton of the stuff. They couldn't track it on a satellite to find the exact location. They had to be physically taken there to find it. All they knew was that he was in the area SOMEWHERE, and if they drove around long enough, they would find some of his men and be captured. I wouldn't put it past Gibbs to have been following them around with a sattelite, if not physically, to find them when they WERE taken. THAT was how they found the physical camp.

And I don't think Ziva's team was the increased presence of Mossad in Somalia was what Special Agent Dunham (I think that's his name) was referring to. How can two officers be considered an 'increased presence'? I think, after Ziva went missing, Mossad pumped a bunch of officers in there to find answers; whether to Ziva's death or the camp's whereabouts, I don't know. It's probable that they were told 'get in, see what you can find and report back'.
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emerellda
emerellda
55. RE: Gibbs and Eli David
Dec 14 2009, 8:07 PM EST | Post edited: Dec 14 2009, 8:07 PM EST
"I could be wrong but didn't Abby figure out where the camp was by following the Caf-Pow trail? I thought that them getting captured was a pretext for the rescue mission. Someone please clarify as I dont have Season 7 stored on my comp? I think that special agent from Texas was referring to Ziva and Ben-Gidons team right before Ziva's one woman assault on that terrorist camp, I could be wrong on this as well as my memory is a little hinky on TnC."
I think she got a more spefic region, like more speficic than somalia, because mossad were only able to track the supplies to that port in somalia, but abby was able to trace it further, and they got far enough, that the terrorist thought they were inflitrated and captured them, and I thought that the increased pressense that chad was refrering to, and they were there to like clean up, make up the story of the boat going down in the strom, extracting malchi, and there other team mate, and like kinda wiping away there trace, so the camp wouldn't know they traced them there, so they wouldn't move on, but I got the impression that chad thought that mossad was there to clean up, not to search, just my intepritation though
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Kiamari
56. RE: Gibbs and Eli David
Dec 14 2009, 8:22 PM EST | Post edited: Dec 14 2009, 8:22 PM EST
"I think she got a more spefic region, like more speficic than somalia, because mossad were only able to track the supplies to that port in somalia, but abby was able to trace it further, and they got far enough, that the terrorist thought they were inflitrated and captured them, and I thought that the increased pressense that chad was refrering to, and they were there to like clean up, make up the story of the boat going down in the strom, extracting malchi, and there other team mate, and like kinda wiping away there trace, so the camp wouldn't know they traced them there, so they wouldn't move on, but I got the impression that chad thought that mossad was there to clean up, not to search, just my intepritation though"
Isn't the best way to find answers about a mistake to clean up the mess it creates to search for answers on how it got that way? By cleaning up the mess involving the Damacles, perhaps they were looking for a clue as to where Ziva went after she and Ben-Gidon went their separate ways. Just because it was not outright stated, does not mean that it didn't happen.

Besides, Eli plays things close to the vest, and I'm sure that there is a LOT of things that he may (or may not) have done that hasn't been shared with the viewers (whether via Vance or otherwise). It wouldn't be interesting if we were just given everything upfront, would it?
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texasjj
57. RE: Gibbs and Eli David
Dec 14 2009, 8:27 PM EST | Post edited: Dec 14 2009, 8:27 PM EST
"I could be wrong but didn't Abby figure out where the camp was by following the Caf-Pow trail? I thought that them getting captured was a pretext for the rescue mission. Someone please clarify as I dont have Season 7 stored on my comp? I think that special agent from Texas was referring to Ziva and Ben-Gidons team right before Ziva's one woman assault on that terrorist camp, I could be wrong on this as well as my memory is a little hinky on TnC."
You're right.
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MargyW
MargyW
58. RE: Gibbs and Eli David
Dec 14 2009, 8:29 PM EST | Post edited: Dec 14 2009, 8:29 PM EST
"Isn't the best way to find answers about a mistake to clean up the mess it creates to search for answers on how it got that way? By cleaning up the mess involving the Damacles, perhaps they were looking for a clue as to where Ziva went after she and Ben-Gidon went their separate ways. Just because it was not outright stated, does not mean that it didn't happen.

Besides, Eli plays things close to the vest, and I'm sure that there is a LOT of things that he may (or may not) have done that hasn't been shared with the viewers (whether via Vance or otherwise). It wouldn't be interesting if we were just given everything upfront, would it?"
Mossads mess cleaning up would be more along the lines of removing all sign of their ever having been there. Standard Mossad operational procedures.

They dump on their own as well as on their allies in real life. There was the CIA Head of Station in Beirut a few years ago. Mossad knew he was going to be snatched by Hamas....and didn't bother to pass the information on the CIA. The man was abducted and murdered.
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Kiamari
59. RE: Gibbs and Eli David
Dec 14 2009, 9:50 PM EST | Post edited: Dec 14 2009, 9:50 PM EST
"They dump on their own as well as on their allies in real life. There was the CIA Head of Station in Beirut a few years ago. Mossad knew he was going to be snatched by Hamas....and didn't bother to pass the information on the CIA. The man was abducted and murdered. "
I do believe I've read something once or twice about the CIA knowing about the 9/11 attacks and the US government doing nothing about it. Isn't that the same thing, except making it even worse by being in their own backyard? And on a larger scale?

People can't really look down on Mossad for something like that when the CIA and US government did the same thing -- and got a lot more people killed for their efforts.
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